Open letter to the English-speaking world from a grammarian

Comments

[this is good]
hahaha! good luck with this one. back in the stone age when silly things like grammar mattered, my hair would stand on end at the atrocities perpetrated on the English language by so-called native speakers. i've learned to let it go. my (somewhat smaller) ulcer thanks me.
I used to misuse those words all the time. Or should I say, "I would misuse them all the time..." (That doesn't even make sense!)

Hah! I've been guilty of using this in speech, but not in writing.

My own pet peeve: people who say "different than". Which is apparently almost everybody. I've even seen Adam Gopnik use "different than" in his New Yorker articles--gaaah!

[this is good]
Red's Grammar Corner - don't make me destroy your articles!

My grammar is horrible. I always thought it was because I was shuffled around so many different grade schools that I just missed out on certain lessons. It wasn't until I was in a composition class my sophomore year in high school that our teacher realized that no one in the class grasped anything beyond the most basic elements of grammar. She had to take two weeks out of our schedule to give us as much information as she could without completely sacrificing her original lesson plan.

You should do a weekly lesson for us to help clean up the neighborhood.

[this scares me a little]

Yeah, I could use a weekly grammar course. I have a hard time grasping some of this stuff. I don't know the diff between further and farther and crap like that. I need the Redz to come around with her red pen and mark up my blog! for realz!

But one of my peeves is when people say lay down. They tell my dog to lay down. Even Elvy knows it's "lie down".

[ciò è buono]
I obey!
[this is good]
Yay for RedZ! This is awesome (even though I confess to falling victim to the somewhat dramatic tone set by using the false subjunctive and fully agree it can be tedious for the reader).

Now if you could get people to understand when to use "me" and when to use "myself," I would be most thankful.
[this is good]

If I knew what you meant, I would change the way I type!

::giggles:: Sorry, I couldn't help myself. I'm all for a grammarically correct world!

I admire the spirit here! However, I don't think those are "false subjunctives;" it seems that would is being used as a past tense indicator -- perhaps dubiously, I'll grant you. This is what some people call a "backshift" of the future tense, or a "future-in-past" tense, where will is used as a future indicator. Would's most common use is for counterfactual conditional statements, but it can also be used as a past tense of will (it's older use) and in cases where it has no modal or temporal use, and is an indicator of politeness.

I admit to being a slacker lately. Bad Amy. I hate it when I leave comments on other people's posts and I see a big typo. I can't fix it and I think, 'now everyone is going to think I have bad grammar/puncuation skills'. And then sometimes I'm just goofing, but those times are obvious.

I promise to be extra careful, Ms. Redz.

I've done what katra mentions ("future-in-past"), usually with "if"
if I knew you were coming, I would have baked a cake

I think the erosion of proper grammar in the media has made it difficult for those of us not grammar savants; there isn't a standard to look up to. *

* until now: Redzilla is on the case.
Just between you and I, English and it's ways is mysterious, and each of us are hard put to write there best. Maybe you should of let the problem lay.
Ah, but Katra and Mariser, what you describe is a conditional/subjunctive phrase. Correctly used it's If I had known you were coming, I would have baked a cake.

As you'll note, though, I didn't know you were coming, so I didn't bake a cake. The condition wasn't met, nothing happened, therefore the use of the subjunctive is correct.

As for the polite form, as in I would like a cup of coffee--that's absolutely a conditional phrase, because it depends upon circumstance and conditions. What is unspoken is the If phrase. In the example above, the unspoken condition is implied--If you're willing to oblige me, I would like a cup of coffee, or If possible, I would like a cup of coffee.
Is the same true of, "If we went to the store before coming home, we would by a popsicle?"
I'm so out of practice!
buy a popsicle. Geez, I'm an embarrassment.

[sigh of relief]

thanks, RedZ, much obliged. I can see the difference. and somewhere in the dusty part of my brain there was a spark of recognition re: conditional phrase with unspoken if phrase.


Well, that's tricksy one, because technically it's correct by dint of the If phrase. That said, if the phrase is mean to imply an occasional occurrence in which popsicles were bought, then it should not be subjunctive. It it truly means to describe a past situation in which popsicles were not bought, then the subjunctive it is.


Thanks! I suppose the whole issue could be skirted by phrasing the whole the differently. :)

If I knew you were coming, I would have baked a cake is of course subjunctive and conditional,. but that's not what I meant by future-in-past. Here's an example:

He said it would take an hour. (future-in-past)

"It will take an hour," he said. (future in the quoted sentence, past in the sentence itself)

*lightly smacks lauowolf on the back of her head*

(god I hope I recognized all of the errors in that one!)

Whatever coherence my writing has is entirely due to my 9th grade English teacher, who taught the now-lost art of diagramming sentences.

I also got a boost of larnin' me them there grammeratical parts from taking 2 years of Latin. You'll never be scared by the English subjunctive again after you meet this case in its full ancestral glory. Wary, yes, but not scared.
Good news, Katra, Oxford Guide to English Usage declares that this, too, fits the subjunctive rules. He said it would take an hour still falls under subjunctive rules, because when discussing the future in the past, the whole construct is conditional. Although described in the past, the future has not yet happened. It becomes clearer why this is so, when you add an additional clause.

He said it would take an hour, but it took two. What he says doesn't make reality, it only implies possibility, and reality is free to depart from that. I feel like I should insert an evil laugh here, but I don't want to usurp Oxford GEU's right to do that.

katra, RedZ did not misunderstand what you meant by "future-in-past"

I did [turns towards class to face punishment]


[this is good]

Thanks for the reminder. I'm very guilty of that. I know to some people it might seem like your being nit-picky, but eliminating the superfluous woulda shoulda coulda does make writing more effective.

Now, of course, I'm going to purposely not do it to piss you off. Had you known what a smartass I am, you could have avoided this. How was that? : )

Ben, dude, this is RedZilla you are threatening to piss off. I recommend you dont'. didn't you see what she did to Tokyo?


I also think it's only fair that we're granted amnesty during conversational speech, such as in our comments. Otherwise we'll be too frightened to ever speak to you, again.

'Nother smiley. : )

Smiley for no good reason. : )

Again! : )

I'm done.

Ah, Ben, you make an excellent point...for a smartass. ;o) I'm willing to offer a general amnesty for comment grammar, as long as all my people promise to try a little harder when writing their posts, oh, and when they submit their articles to CNN, and their novels to their publishers.
my personal pet grammer peeve is the use of where and at in the same sentence, as in "where are you at?" If you use where you don't need at.

Thanks for the lesson on the subjunctive. I was unsure about that verb tense and have probably been guilty of past grammatical errors myself.

Or, just get rid of the "are" and say, "Where you at?"

That's how I roll. And I roll deep.

'Nother one. : )

Isn't that "deeply"?

Smartassing myself. Hee.

How do you smartass yourself?

bam! : )

LT--last time we diagrammed sentences was 7th grade. That was really the last time we had grammar lessons at all (that I remember).

The future "conditional," though, differs in one important way: the realis vs irrealis distinction. Some people call this the "real" conditional. When expressing something in the future tense, if it is something that you believe will happen, it's realis. If it's something you think will not happen or is unlikely, then it's irrealis.

I will go to the beach next week (even if it rains). (realis)

I would go to the beach next week (if I had a day off). (irrealis)

I mean, surely when we speak about the future, we do not know in advance what will happen, and yet we make statements anyway, constructing them in ways that reveal whether we think something will or will not happen. The example he said it would take an hour is merely expressing the same thing as "it will take an hour," he said using indirect discourse. The presence of would has no bearing on the speaker's belief that it would, in fact, take an hour. The speaker believes this to be true, even though he can not forecast the future. If the Oxford guide calls that conditional, it is a "real conditional," which is sort of an oxymoron anyway.

Of course none of this has any bearing on the examples from your original post, which are making use of would to indicate a "habitual aspect" in the past tense, as happens with will in the present tense.

[this is good]
golly gee there redz, your a real smart lady, ya know when i were young i would fail all mah grammar tests cuz i don't like me some grammar none. still don't like it none now but i bet u can't tell!

I know for a fact that I'm guilty of incorrect subjunctive use, and now I have the means to tell when I am being erroneous. It would be nice if Vox had the Red Pen Edit function for Redz to go back and edit all of our posts. I'd be a class embarassment, I tell you!
[esto es genial]
Would that I were as good at grammar as Redz...although I did actually once pass a college-level grammar test, part of the requirements in the journalism school I attended. If you failed the test, you had to take a remedial writing course taught by Professor Drusilla Evarts. Her nickname was Conan the Grammarian. She was much scarier than Redz (no offense, Redz, her REAL name is Drusilla -- that's scary). I passed the test.
*Goes through posts*

Guilty. I have horrible grammar. :(

A weekly lesson is a good idea for dummies like me!
Thanks for the gloss on realis v. irrealis, although I must complain that you've accomplished the very thing I wanted to avoid in my post--scaring people with grammar. I had hoped to provide people with a very simple rule of thumb to decide whether to use the subjunctive or the simple past, but now there's blood on the dance floor.
Plus, Drusilla was clearly a professional grammarian. I am a mere hobbiest grammarian.
An Arizona tech writer started doing podcasts about grammar. They were so popular she quit her day job and is full-time Grammar Girl. If you want lessons, this is an entertaining and easy way to get in some learnin'.
[this point is moot] I hate to rain on the parade. At the current rate of things, we'll all be speaking Chinese, Spanish or Arabic instead of English soon. So make sure you get grammatically correct in one of those languages. The only thing English seems to be good for anymore is for rap lyrics (we all know how many good rappers are out there) and as a second language.
I'm hoping for Spanish, as it has a very similar grammatical structure. Chinese and Arabic? Eeek! The one thing English has going for it, though: it's very easy to learn the basics.
[this is good]
Becomes self-conscious and wonders if I do that?!

I am usually a grammar freak as well, but I have to say I've never paid much attention to the subjunctive.

I will now!
eeek.
Please take my many many blog posts' / comments' grammatical errors with a grain of salt . . . ok?
I mean no harm.
Thank you!

Blood on the dance floor! heh. Must be the Tango de la Muerte. Anyway, I just don't think technical terms are that scary, and I'd rather say something true than something innocuous.

My point is this: That CNN article is not incorrect. It is not a "false subjunctive," and the syntax in no way implies that the events did not happen or were unlikely. That did happen, in the past, habitually.

Katra, I offer you a polite handshake of permanent disagreement on this topic. While Oxford declares the usage execrable, I won't waste time on correct/incorrect in this age of descriptive grammar. I will insist that the CNN article is inaccurate and poorly written. You won't get me to approve of the use of conditional verbs where the simple past tense will serve both writer and reader more admirably.
[this is good]

Been there. I'm the spawn of the English professor. How about we teach people about the subjunctive tense first and THEN bitch about the false subjunctive.

If you was to do such a thing, I would be forced to whip some ass.

I'm just saying... it takes me there.

[this is good]
I agree that the CNN article isn't correct. When I'm writing (well, not so much writing but when I'm editing my writing or the writing of others) I try to tighten as much as possible, which helps eliminate improper usage of the subjunctive. If the sentence reads "for water, they would find puddles," I would look at it and determine if it could read "for water they found puddles." I try to think of Edgar Allen Poe's philosophy on writing. He felt that every word should be important within a sentence and if it wasn't, remove it. In journalism, a writer should always be looking for the tightest way to craft their sentences anyway.

I used to be surprised when poor grammar showed up in top-tier magazines or Web sites but the way that journalism and publishing is changing, it is harder to find writers and editors in general--or at the very least, to pay them. More and more publications are accepting freelancers and often don't do much editing work once the article is received, simply because they no longer have the staff. The Net is great for some things but when it comes to the written word, it has created an entirely new conundrum. It's easier than ever to write and publish and unfortunately, many who do shouldn't be in the first place.

Great lesson btw. I tend to get lazy in my casual writing and this is a nice reminder of all the reasons why I should be more thoughtful as I spit out words on blogs and emails.

You always have the best posts!!
Would you mind if I have a bit of fun at this late point in the thread?
(cough) How much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck would chuck wood? A woodchuck would chuck as much wood as a woodchuck could chuck if a woodchuck would chuck wood."

My little pet peeve is, "those ones" (bites lip). "Those" will do fine.
Are you trying to tell me that a woodchuck can't chuck wood? [goes back to revise doctoral thesis]
I get that the word would here reminds you of the subjunctive or of the conditional, for completely obvious and understandable reasons, but it is not the conditional. It is not the subjunctive.

I also get that you don't like the style of the CNN piece -- let's face it; it is inelegant at best. If you were to write an open letter advising others not to use modal verbs when forming the habitual past, that would be an appropriate response. (But as that's an issue of style or personal taste, not one of correctness or accuracy, good luck.)

The problem with the CNN piece has nothing to do with the subjunctive or the conditional, except that it bears them a passing resemblance.
I was taught that because it has "nothing to do with the subjunctive" that it is "false subjunctive." The operative word there is false. This is perhaps an inelegant way of referring to it, and I will endeavor to change my phraseology in any such future open letters. ;o) That said, I've never had a writing professor suggest that using modal verbs to delineate habitual past was acceptable.

Geez, my pet grammatical peeve is when my daughter uses the word like as every third word in a conversation.

"I was like you know like thinking about like doing this like piece of art like that had like some reds like and maybe like some blues like in the like center area? Like you know? Like a real like work of like art?"

The English language suffers from far-flung distribution and numerous dialects, of which some are well-documented and some can only be described by sheer volume of common usage. We have nothing like the RAE in Spanish. I have a feeling that an attempt to create such a governing body over the English language would end in violence.

The CNN example here illustrates a poor stylistic choice from a writer who should be writing an easily-consumed piece of journalism. Whether it's comprehensible or correct is secondary to the fact that it's an awkward read.

Being a technical writer for a company that translates what I write into 30+ languages, I have had to learn a new set of rules. I'm the sort of person who reads Strunk's omit needless words and wants to rewrite it as be brief. Now if I leave a connecting word out of a sentence or use a conjunction, I face the wrath of my editor. (For example: "You discovered I'm a technical writer" becomes "You discovered that I am a technical writer.") The only way to translate millions of words into 30 languages in between the date the product is finished and the date the product goes to the shelf is to use machine translation as the first step. I feel like my own writing has become stilted as a result.

Oh, Saska, the thought of doing technical writing for a living day after day frightens me. You must have a special, steely resolve to do what you do. (After several years of writing PR fluff, I felt like I had to go on the writing equivalent of a monastic retreat to "cleanse" my own writing. So, I empathize with you on worrying about what it's doing to your writing.)
I do the best I can, and try to help others, but I'll be honest - I really don't remember being taught nearly as much grammar in school as I should have been taught. Well, I say "don't remember" but I mean "was never taught" because I would certainly remember being taught these things if it had happened. I think that by virtue of reading a lot, I picked up quite a bit more than what I took from school. And I have a fondness for grammar books. I confess though that I have no idea about false subjunctive and all that - I think it's time for a new grammar book. And all of that being said, I don't police myself much online - nothing like I do in real life. I need to delve deeper into my love of all things grammar/spelling/all that there english stuff.
Thank you, red. Some of us has to do it.

In Katra's defense...I was scared before she showed up to the dance. :-P

I waxed philosophic over in my own blog on the subject, but it's not as bad as I perhaps made it out to be. It's just harder to switch between the multiple styles. I pick up writers' styles like I pick up accents -- which is to say, unconsciously and thoroughly -- so sometimes reading is an even greater hazard than writing documentation. :)

[this is good]

Okay, I never really knew the term "false subjunctive" but I never used it!

[this is good]
OK, how about the king of false usages: "To beg the question"
Discuss amongst yourselves.
Disclaimer : I did not know this until my best friend, who is an English Lit professor, explained it to me. And everyone uses it incorrectly.
The reason most people routinely misuse "begging the question" is that we don't teach logic in school anymore. At a university with more than 100 English Composition instructors, I was the only one teaching logic as part of the research essay. Not once in 8 years teaching Composition did I encounter a student who had studied logic in high school. Yikes.
"Not once in 8 years teaching Composition did I encounter a student who had studied logic in high school." Aha! This explains it. I studied logic outside the U.S., and the common misuse of "begging the question" in American media and casual conversation has been puzzling me for years. I was beginning to think my high school debate teacher had misled me.


So how is "begs the question" misused and used properly? I don't really say that, I know what it means (or how it is meant), but am not sure how it is supposed to be used & how it is misused....
The misuse I generally hear is people saying, "That begs the question of..." when what they really mean is "That raises the question of..."

"Begs the question" describes a fallacy of logic, in which one of the premises of the argument presupposes the conclusion is true. The simple example often give is this: "God is real, because the Bible says he's real, and the Bible is the inerrant word of God." It's the equivalent of quoting a Spider-Man comic book to prove that Spider-Man is real.
[this is good]
I should have read this post earlier, then I might not have improperly used "begs the question" and the subjunctive tense in the same day. Not that I have any defense on the "begs the question" front, but EVERYONE in my profession uses it incorrectly. Is it possible to make something correct if everyone uses it incorrectly and, therefore, give it a new meaning?
Tragically, yes, it's more than possible to change a word's meaning through usage. It's downright common. Take infer/imply--utterly destroyed. Or hopefully. Or literally, which is so rarely used to mean literally anymore. Or a word like niggardly, which no one dares to use anymore.

So is it the MOVIE that proves Spiderman is real? :-P

I do have to say, that it drives me crazy when people say "literally". I LITERALLY was shitting bricks. really now. you should join a union.

RedZ sez,

Or a word like niggardly, which no one dares to use anymore.

I guess you are referring to this lovely episode


Indeed, that was the very incident I was thinking of--a case where a few minutes alone with a dictionary ought to have solved the problem, but didn't.

As for Cranky's example--my advice would be "maybe it's time to visit a proctologist." Ouch.
[this is good]
Are you objecting wholesale to 'would' for past repeated actions?
It seems that your energy would be better spent correcting actual errors like :

This painting would be commissioned in 1856 - wrong.
This painting was commissioned in 1856 - right.

Rather than

Ms. Smythe, the wealthy patron, would frequently commission portraits of herself, which would usually provoke the most horrible fawning from the local artists.

Surely the use above is not nearly as unpleasant as the illogic of "used to" for similar meanings.

I would agree that today's misuses are tomorrow's grammar rules, though.
Actually I find them equally annoying and inaccurate. In the Ms. Smythe sample, the simple past tense is preferable for the sake of brevity.
[this is good]
Nice post, Redzilla. I'm a card-carrying pedant and can't help but get wound up at the misuse of English on the Internet. Would that I could be like IslandGirl (first comment) and let things pass; I know I'd be happier, but I just can't help myself. I even blogged about it last month when an errant apostrophe destroyed my serenity. It's the apostrophes that bother me the most. I read a post this very morning in which someone stated that someone else live's nearby. What the heck possesses someone to put an apostrophe in a third person singular verb?!
I thougt they use it in the news, to make everything sound more current and it's a special stylistic news device
Oh. wait.
You mean an apostrophe isn't just advance warning that a final s is about to appear?

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RedScylla

About Me

RedScylla
United States
So... some very polite lawyers for the Japanese toy company Toho tell me I can't use the Godzilla graphic anymore. Or any dinosaur or lizard graphic. I've been a bad girl.
Yahoo!:
redzillaattacks AT yahoo DOT com

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